Norm, I’m doing a new thing with this painting about you and the shop—this is the first time I’ve contacted the person who’s spoken about in the painting while I’m still making the work. Usually when I paint stories about people I know, I finish the painting first and then contact them to see what they think about it and whether it’s ok to use their real name and exhibit it. […]
But you don’t believe in censorship do you?
We're recording now […] so, the story is called ‘Two for One’.
Right.
Maybe it'll take about five minutes to read.
Okay, go ahead.
Alright. ‘Since forever—or at least since the ‘90s—[reads story] then cheerily waves me goodbye and good luck.' […] And that's the end of the story.[chuckles]
You're very observant! [Nervous laughter]
[Nervous laughter] Do you remember this moment?
Oh some of it, some of it, yeah.
It's my exaggerated memories of the shop but […] this moment where you gave me career advice really stood out for me and so this is why I wanted to make a painting dedicated to the shop and to this moment. […] Yeah, what are your feelings?
Ah, very… Very strange feeling. I feel very self-conscious now!
Oh no!
Well, it's like you're talking about someone in the third person sort of thing, and I'm right here it's like […] it feels like you're eavesdropping into a private conversation […] from a while ago. Are you happy with that?
Am I happy with what?
Are you happy with the story you've done?
Umm. […] I'm […] interested to paint it. […]
Are there things in the story that you're unhappy with?
No, I thought it was a fairly balanced thing, like when you mentioned that people walk past and call out and things like that. I've always enjoyed that. I've always thought that was sort of helpful and something I like to do. I mean obviously it's a business, but it was sort of more than that.
Yeah I definitely saw it as more than that and when I would come and buy something, I really loved our long conversations. What was the shop for you? Or how did you see your role in this community?
Oh, just being part of it and I think that was important, so nothing sort of spectacular or, you know, life-changing or anything like that, but something I like to do. And you know, you try to treat people well and hopefully they treated you the same way, but most times that did happen so that was a good thing.
How long were you running the shop?
Twenty six years. […] My father passed away in 1991 and I took over then.
And how long was your father running the shop?
Probably a good thirty years.
Wow, and before that?
Yeah, I don't know if it was anything before that. ‘That was it’ sort of thing. […] He started probably about 1950 I think but you know, that was what people done back then. They stayed at the same job and things like that, raised their family. […] He had five children and four of us went to university. It was something that he was very proud of. He didn't talk about it, but you would see that was an important thing for him as a father to do.
[…]
Well, back then there were only corner stores back then at the beginning. But then it was only later on when the supermarkets moved in that it all changed, but that was just part of the way things happened then.
[…]
Which number are you in the order of siblings?
Number five.
Okay. And did you also go to university?
I was the one that missed out, but my parents never put pressure on us to do well academically like some families did. They just wanted us to do the best we could. And if you weren’t academically inclined, well, you know, that didn't matter. It wasn't like, you know, you felt pressured into doing something that you didn't have the heart in.
And, the advice you gave me—
Follow your heart? […] Be true to yourself.
Are these things that were passed down from your parents as well?
Oh, a little bit, but from everywhere. From neighbours, friends, strangers.You sort of absorb all these good and bad things that make you […] the way you are.
What are some of your most memorable memories of twenty six years that you are running the shop?
What memories do I have?
Like are there any big memories from that time that have really stuck with you? […] Like good or bad?
Well probably the thing was I got held up twice in the shop at the time.
[Suddenly inhales, surprised]
And the second, the first time you had to inform the police to come out and do a report about it and they couldn't believe how many people dropped by to make sure I was okay and things like that, they just couldn't believe it.
[Breathes and attempts to ask a question, then decides to listen further]
And then for the next couple of days so many people came in to make sure I was okay, which was very, very touching even though nothing really happened but they were very concerned. […] I was a bit taken aback by that, by the amount of interest people took in me.
Yeah that doesn't surprise me but it sounds like you were a little bit surprised—
Of course I was.
—that people really cared. […]
Yeah.
Would you be available or interested to chat again sometime?
Oh yeah, I can do that. It's eight o'clock here in Sydney. […] Can you ring us at that time?
Yes, yes.
Friday. It would be good to catch up and find a few more things to say.
Yes, swap some stories. Do you have things you're looking forward to this week? What have you got on for the week?
Ah, just going out a few times for coffee or lunch. So I'm quite happy to do that. That's one thing I missed when I had the shop, you see people going out to have breakfast. You know, they're having smashed avocado on sourdough bread with double-skimmed coffees and all that. That bypassed me a bit, but it's nice to be able to do that now.
Hello.
Hi Norm, it’s Ida.
Hi Ida, how are you?
I’m good. It's your nuisance phone call from Germany. [chuckles]
Ah, don’t be so hard on yourself […] What's it going to be today?
Oh, well, I'm recording now. Is that okay?
Yes. […] You're interested in the shop in Alexandria and me and you want to write something about it? […] Well, I've got something I can share with you… What happened is a guy comes into the shop and he's at the university and he said he always wanted to write a story about the shop. […] And I sort of said there's nothing to write about, [chuckling] but he kept persisting and then finally we did it. So, there's about six pages, but I've edited it down to three.
Oh, great. Are you going to read it out to me?
Yes, if I can. […] Okay. You ready?
I'm ready!
[reads story] ‘Norman opened the shop at six a.m. Winter mornings are cold, but the motors for the fridge kept the shop warm overnight. The papers, bread and milk are delivered in the next hour and Norm sits on his stool reading the Sydney Morning Herald. His work uniform is sneakers, tracksuit pants, and a t-shirt, and a parka. He’s five foot six tall and fit. His open face [chuckling] hardly shows the wrinkles of 50 years plus…’
[NM continues reading excerpts of the article by Jock Wheeldon, he leaves out the details the author has added in admiration of Norm]
[Sounds of turning the page]
[…]
Do you like that so far?
Yeah, I'm really loving it. Loving all the images and everything. Keep going.
[sounds of turning the page, continues reading the text]
And last bit: [reads story] ‘ When Norm told us that he was selling out it was shock to all of us and everyone in the neighbourhood. We all have our relationships with Norm. He invited his customers to pop in for a drink and snacks on the last day of the week. The night I popped in, the shop was overflowing with locals who’d brought snacks, plates, wine and champagne to share. I met people I’d walked past a dozen times, vaguely familiar, and now we’re on first name terms with all of them. Norm seemed surprised at the attention, and touched. We were happy for him but sad for what he, and we, were losing.’
[…]
Yeah that's not too bad.
That's a beautiful article. Was that the end?
Yeah, that was it. I mean, I've edited it down a bit. So what have you been doing this week?
[…] I also wanted to quiz you on what you noticed changed over time [in the area]. Like, I moved into Alexandria in 1992. […]
[…] My father worked seven days a week so we never went on holidays, we didn’t do that sort of thing. […]
Right. I mean you were working seven days a week too. Did you—
Oh that was normal for us. […]
Do you think that's why you've really prioritised travel, as one of your things you're doing now?
Ah, of course, of course. You know, I've been buying a few travel books and things like that and it opens your eyes… Getting you away from your own small little world sort of thing. […] When he [Jock] had done it a couple of years ago [written the article] I was a bit surprised, but it was well written.
I remember you being very confronted when I read you my story. When you said you were surprised that Jock wrote this article, what do you mean?
[…] Well, I didn't think there was anything of interest, you know. There was nothing, anything that I'd done was different or outstanding or special or anything like that, which is sort of, you know… [long pause] Yeah.
Maybe from an inside perspective it's hard to see, but from an outside perspective it's different.
I was just thinking more about the changes over time, like warehouses being knocked down and luxury houses being built in the street for instance. What about personalities—did they change over time or was it kind of the same feeling from the neighbourhood while you had the shop?
Well, we have a lot more young professional people now… You know, a lot of bankers, lawyers and well—and young educated people [the neighbourhood] moved away from the blue collar working class background, that's for sure.
Apart from their job descriptions, in your interactions with people did it feel any different?
Oh, well, some of them were very friendly and open and obliging, and others not so, but that happens anywhere.
When I was living across the road, the shop, your shop was great for things like, you know, milk and newspapers… but then we had to do our other shopping in another place for fresh vegetables and that kind of thing. Was the shop always designed like that? Or at different points could you do all of your grocery shopping there?
No, we were just the basics, you know: bread, milk, potatoes, tomatoes and tinned food […] that's about it sort of thing. It's not a big range, just concentrate on the basics.
The necessities.
Yeah very much so.
And was that a model you adopted from when your father was running the shop?
Oh he had a bigger range but the other supermarkets took over that. […] So we were sort of left with the leftovers.
When you say ‘we’, who's ‘we’?
Ah, I mean the shop and me.
So it's not an easy road, it's not an easy road to go along, is it? The full-time art thing?
It’s up and down.
Well, you're not in it for the money, obviously, are you?
[Bursts out laughing]
Do you think [me] trying to make comparisons between what you do in the shop and what I do as a painter, do you think it's…What are your honest thoughts on that?
No, I think you've got a different path to mine. So, you know, art for the sake of art, whereas I'm a bit more, ahh, more… realistic. Don't you think so?
I mean, maybe realism is not my strong point, but umm, tell me what you mean by realistic.
All of the normal things of getting ahead and being, you know, being established and getting a good reputation and being successful and what you want to do with your art. […] That’s, that's the way I see you. You know, something you really need to or want to do. And it's got sort of a downside about it. You're not going to be, you know, with success and money and things like that, that's not sort of something you think about much.
Hmm, I mean, I do think about and question definitions of success and ambition and it's kind of changing all the time. Like—
But not a lot? Not a big change?
Umm. […] I mean, I change what my priorities are and… maybe sometimes it's like, ‘I want to do bigger and better shows!’ and then other times I'm feeling like, ‘Oh, you know what? I just want to show my friends my work and then anyone else who comes to the exhibition that's a bonus’. Umm, or then I might change again and be like, ‘Oh I only want to do shows where I get to have lots of great conversations’. I've been showing a lot of work where I've sent it overseas and I don't get to be with the work… and that was great in a lot of ways because I was able to get income from that but then I learnt that it’s quite alienating for me and it's really important to me to be with the work because it feels good. And I really love being able to talk to the audience about the work and hear what the work brings up for them—the stories it brings up for them— and their reactions and interpretations. I'm kind of realising it's a post-pandemic thing as well: just how much interaction and conversation is really important to me. So yeah, I would say these definitions are changing a lot for me.
When you have an opening, how important is that for the works?
Oh, it's great! For the works there's something magical that happens between the work slouched on the floor of your studio and when it gets put on a gallery wall—suddenly it's not just a thing but it becomes art. [Giggles] And it's a really nice marker ofI did something and I inished it and then I get to celebrate with my friends and all the other people that I made it to the finish line!
Are you… are you the most critical person of your own work?
Umm. […] I don't know. Sometimes I think I've done a pretty good job when I think I have!
Well, that's good that you can sort of be objective about yourself. Usually you're so involved you can't stand back a bit.
Yeah, I don't know about ‘objective’ but…
But you know in your own heart you've done a good job and other times, ‘Well, try again next time’. But when you've resolved what you want to do and you've done it, you feel a sense of accomplishment then, wouldn't you?
Yeah, also I find sometimes projects mean different things, like, it means a different thing when I'm making it and then when I exhibit it it might shift. And then five years later I'm like, ‘Ah I think it means something different for me now.’
It’s been really great to hear different ways of doing things then you kind of trust your gut and figure out what's important to [your] definitions of ambition, or success, or what feels good. What about you? How would you define what success is?
More about myself, you know, am I happy with what I've done? Do I respect and like other people and like myself? I think that's sort of an important thing to do. But we don’t have to become too self-absorbed sort of thing. […] Does that happen with you with art? That it swallows you up a bit? And there's not much left over at the end?
Sometimes I think it can get a bit self-absorbed.
Do you sort of think you need other people's opinion or you're satisfied yourself that you knowwhat you want and what you're capable of?
I want it to be the latter, but you know, I'm also human. [Laughs]
Really? I'd never thought of that!
When you were running the shop did your definitions of whether it was running successfully or not change over time?
Well I realised I wasn't gonna be a great success. You sort of modify your beliefs, you look for other things to do in the shop. Meeting people and that sort of thing were becoming more important than being successful.
When you say successful. Do you mean like, financially?
Well, a bit of everything. The shop going well, financially sure. […] So I wanted to ask you, when you went to art school… how many of the other students made the transition to being in full-time art?
There's a big bunch of us still making art and exhibiting frequently and other people who have gone on to pursue other things […] but very creative in the way they're doing it and they're flourishing in this new path…
You see yourself doing that?
Doing something completely different? […] Maybe one day I'll wake up and be like, ‘You know what, I just want to be a tax accountant.’
—a corporate.
Yeah. Exactly! [Bursts out laughing]
Or I’m gonna do IT or do cyber security. That’s [had] a big growth apparently now.
Yes, maybe. I'll jump on that bandwagon. And I think that’s okay! That’s okay to change one’s mind.
Have you always had this, sort of, flexible attitude towards work and art? It’s not the be all and end all, there are other things in life and that sort of thing?
Well when I was pretty miserable when I was kind of burning out, I was like, ‘Well what's the point of doing this if it's not enjoyable?’
Isn’t that part of the lessons of life? You learn more from failure than you do from success, which is a terrible cliché but it is true I think.
Yeah and it's so unfortunate, it's so unfair isn't it? [Bursts out laughing again]
Of course it is! It makes you a stronger person—but who wants it!?
So any more questions?
Umm, yes, I do have more questions. So I'm writing a little biography. It's three sentences for myself and it's like how I define myself and my art practice and what are some exhibitions I've made, and what am I working on now and looking forward to. Can you help me write one for you?
[Inhales] How… how would that be?
Umm, well firstly, it will be for this exhibition—so would it be okay to use your full name?
Yes.
Also, I never knew your full name before.… tell me your full name, Norm.
Musung: M - U - S - U - N - G
Musung. So, how would you […] Mine says something like ‘Ida Lawrence lives in Berlin and paints’. Or, you know, ‘is an artist and is painting stories’. So how would you define yourself?
What as a person?
As a person… or if it's in the context of the shop?
Ahh. […] What I... I am, is it what I think I am, as a person?
Yeah.
Well, I like to think I treat people well and hopefully they respect that and respect me. I think that's sort of important.
[…] I could say that you live in Sydney?
Oh, it's up to you to, yeah, go ahead with what you want to do.
Maybe should I read you one that I did a draft of and you tell me what you want to change?
No, you should just go ahead and do what you want without any sort of outside interference thing.
[Laughs] But it's about you!
…Ah, no.
It’s a bit torturous?
I’m a bit lost about it.
Alright.
It's not something I sort of want to do or think about.
Alright.
It's hard sort of talking about yourself. Oh for me anyway, it just seems a bit, you feel uncomfortable.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine that. Yeah… it's one of the skills we [artists] have to have [chuckles, embarrassed]… to write about ourselves in the third person but of course… not everyone does that on a daily basis! So… well… should I… I'll just make something for you then?
I think I prefer it that way. I'll leave it up to you.
Umm, could I include, last time we spoke you said that you were looking forward to eating brunch this week.
Yes.
At a café? Could I say that that's one of the things you also enjoy?
Oh yeah, very much so. Going to cafés to have coffee or lunch. That’s really it. I didn't sort of think of it as a hobby but I do it at least twice a week now […] with different people. […] It sounds pretty mundane but actually it's something I really enjoy because you meet up with people and they've got interesting stories to tell and things like that. […]
Is it friends and family that you're enjoying spending time with?
A bit of everything. It’s the whole, umm, yeah some families and some neighbours and some friends and things like that. Really broad cross-section. So it's something I look forward to doing.
Yeah. Yeah. I can really understand that. It sounds delightful! […] I love going to cafes too! Well, thank you for your trust then.
Something I'm doing is painting nine shelves of different items. I'm having fun arranging my own version of your shop. But I thought it'd be fun, umm […] I wonder if you want to tell me what to paint on one of the shelves?
Not really. I'm happy for you to do what you decide on. It’s your work, you should keep that in mind, I think. I'm quite happy to let you. […] I don't want to contaminate it. […] But you go ahead and do what you feel. That would be better for me, I think.
You prefer it that way? I thought it could be a nice way to include something about the way you remember the shop or, you know, items that might be particularly symbolic or memorable for you.
I can't think of anything. I was just happy to walk away and feel good about it. I was happy in that way.
Yeah. Okay.
I am realising this work that I'm making is a lot about conversation.
Right, yes.
So it's our conversations together and then something I'm playing with is… kind of conversations between the painting and—
—the subject.
The subject and also the processes and conversations I'm having with people to help me finish the work and […]
Oh, that’s a pretty standard way of doing it, isn't it? […] When you're doing a portrait of someone, you want to get what they're really about and reveal something about yourself too, isn’t it? Or that's what you'd like to do?
Yeah, I agree. I think that’s what I'd like to do and even though I'm not painting your face, I do think it is like a portrait. […]
Have you ever done those? Portraits?
Yeah.
Do you go into the Archibald [Prize] or the Moran [Prize] or something like that?
Umm, I have in the past, and of course been rejected. [Laughs]
After you paid your entry fee?!
After I paid my $50 entry fee, yeah! [Laughs]
Are you seeing any art exhibitions? Does that kind of thing interest you?
Oh yeah, it's sort of, you get all the different styles, but it's still a very subjective arbitrary thing what constitutes a good painting and whether you like it or not sort of thing. But I'm sure your turn will come soon!
[Bursts out laughing] Thanks Norm! What sort of work do you enjoy or work that you think is good or that moves you or speaks to you?
Ah. No, it's such a hard question to answer that. And then things are never… you might like something now, but later on you can't see why you did, so it's such an arbitrary thing really.
I think I agree with that. […] I think my tastes change or depending on other things that I'm seeing or other things that I'm making —it kind of shifts what I appreciate.
You've got a while to go with the current painting, you haven't really sort of fixed and resolved yourself what you wanted to do?
The one about the shop?
Yeah, the one you're doing now. […]
Yeah, I've got a bit of a sketch for it and I've made the first layers. So I've built myself a pretend shop shelf out of a cardboard box and am setting up little still lifes of objects on the shelves. To get them to the right height, I've made a bit of a tower of stools and boxes and books, so that I can paint at the right angle.
Sounds like an installation more than a painting!
How about you, do you dream about living in another place?
Ah, sometimes, but then you sort of realise, you know, I'm a bit of a home person. But yeah travel sort of interests me. Do you think you get much out of it? Like to make you a… not a better person but a more informed person, a more mature person, a grown person?
I don't know, it's hard to differentiate what's as a result of living in other places and just like getting older. But yeah, I guess in a previous conversation we hadwhere we were saying it's through challenges or failing that you also learn things.
Yes.
So yeah, I've learned a lot [laughs loudly] these last years! But… there's still a lot to learn. There's a lot I don't understand.
Ah, don’t we all, don’t we all. […]
Something I would like to be better at is having respectful conversations with people who have very different politics or views to me. I think part of the problem is that people just don't know how to disagree with one another in a constructive way… How did you deal with that? When people would come into the shop and have opinions or say things that were different to yours, did you have a way of… dealing with that?
Dealing with it? Ah, well everyone's entitled to their opinion. You know, there's the old saying one side doesn't have all the good performers. There's people in the opposition that you don't like but you respect what they're about sort of the thing.
What’s the saying?
Not one team has all the best players.
Ah, okay. Did people ever come into the shop and change your mind on things?
Not really, you just sort of express an opinion and you thought that, okay we disagree but you respect their right to disagree about it. You're not going to try to bash away and say that because I’m right, you know, you've got to listen to what I've got to say and agree with it.
I feel like not everyone can do that, listen to differing opinions without becoming very emotional. Did you become good at that?
Oh yeah, you know, some of the things people say that you disagree with, but you know, if you pull them up about it, or you know, it's their right to express an opinion about that, even though you don't agree with it. Well, you know, I’m not gonna try and change their point of view. I mean, it's very unlikely I could do it. I don’t see the point of why I should. They just, they're entitled to what they think about the thing.
So was one of your roles in the shop also being a sounding board for people to express their views?
Oh yeah, of course. You know, you get all different types of people. Some of the arguments are very well thought out. Others a bit foolish and silly, so you try to respect that sort of thing.
And what other roles did you play? Did people come in with their confessions and share them with you? Or what were other kinds of interactions?
Yeah, that sort of happened a bit. […] Though I didn’t try to change people's opinions, just because they weren’t my opinions. Sometimes they presented an argument or point of view I’d never thought about and it changed my mind. So you try and be open-minded, but obviously, you can't be all the time.
Do you think that being an artist, that's sort of what you want people to think of you as? Or do you think there's more to you than just being an artist or a painter sort of thing?
I mean firstly I just want to be seen as a human being. And—
—a person.
Yeah, and then the artist thing comes later. But I think also my responsibilities as a person or a citizen, they're kind of different to my responsibilities as an artist. […] How you define yourself is a thing I think about a lot. […] Artists have to write about ourselves in the third person—as you know! And… there are lots of different forces trying to reduce your work to a particular thing or to define your work in a narrow way because it's easier to sell and to communicate about it in a simple way. And, I'm kind of trying also to fight that […] So that it's kind of… can be open to different, ahh, contexts and can be interpreted in different ways, umm. And I've lost my train of thought [laughs], what am I saying? What was the question Norm? […] Being defined as an artist? Is that the question?
Yeah, go on.
Yeah, just, I don’t know. I think it's good… to leave room for… I think it’s good to leave room for change. […]
Or growth.
Or growth! Yeah. ‘I'm not interested in that thing I was interested in before, I'm doing this other thing’. Or, ‘Now I'm not painting anymore, I'm making sculptures out of BluTac!’ Or…
‘I'm gonna sell my soul and do expensive portraits of people that make money!’
‘I wanna make expensive portraits of expensive people! Yeah!’ Yeah… I think the freedom thing is something that I am interested in protectin. […]
Artist’s integrity?
The artist’s integrity! [Bursts out laughing] The artists' integrity!
‘You know, I can't be bought! I'm not to be sold for anyone!’ sort of thing. ‘You can't do that to me!’
You know, people have told me that they think I should paint in a certain way or not use certain colours. […]
Are they painters themselves or experts?
People who might sell my work, because it makes it easier for them to sell it if it's, I don't know, green not pink or whatever. Umm, but yeah, I think it's something I want to protect.
Are they interfering on a technical point of view? Or are there other things involved?
Well, their advice comes from a perspective of what's going to be easier for them [to sell].
Makes it a bit awkward?
Well, I can just ignore it! That’s another thing. [Laughs]
Yeah, well, everyone is entitled to their opinion!
[Laughing] There's that phrase again! […] But, you know, sometimes... people also share some thoughts or give advice and it is something I think about, or I reject at the time and think about later. […] It’s that ‘being open’ thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, when’s the next time we’re gonna talk?